Curse

Hyperventilate · Nov 15, 2009, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by prinzess of life

My suggestion to fix fort Aspenwood is something completly new. Change the game mechanics of it !

We all know that Gunther is creating a godly weapon... and to do this he needs a certain amount of time. That's completly wrong - what he should need is Amber.

If the Kurzicks own all 3 amber mines the progression of building that weapon should be triple speed, if they own 2 mines double speed, 1 mine single speed - no mine at all = no progression!

Instead of hiding behind gates keeping one single NPC alive they would actualy have to go out and do something to win...

Running amber should still repair the gates and giving it to gunther should make the weapon be build faster...

I also would introduce some sort of (Victory or Death) mechanics , by opening every gates when the weapon creation hits 90%.

Errr...

I'm all for originality, but... what?
"We all know that Gunther is creating a godly weapon... and to do this he needs a certain amount of time. That's completly wrong - what he should need is Amber."

That's like saying, a car mechanic fixing an engine doesn't need time to fix it. He needs motor oil!

Doesn't make sense, does it?

He needs time to work. Amber assists him, but it isn't absolutely vital. The weapon isn't made of amber.

"If the Kurzicks own all 3 amber mines the progression of building that weapon should be triple speed, if they own 2 mines double speed, 1 mine single speed - no mine at all = no progression!"

We already have a PvP format for this: It's called Jade Quarry. If I want to do nothing but battle over mines, I'll go play that. I play FA because it's NOT JQ. Thanks.

"Instead of hiding behind gates keeping one single NPC alive they would actualy have to go out and do something to win..."

Because an attack/defend format is too hard to understand? The Kurzicks are defending, the Luxons are attacking. The Kurzicks are supposed to bunker down and and weather the storm, where as the Luxons are that storm. If both sides are attacking... we go right back to.. what was it? Oh yeah, Jade Quarry.

"I also would introduce some sort of (Victory or Death) mechanics , by opening every gates when the weapon creation hits 90%."

Okay. You're sitting in your back room working on your computer. Massive virus, everything is getting de-bunked. You almost get it fixed and your door suddenly falls over.

What? Why would the gates suddenly open? Would you open your doors to a bunch of bandits pillaging a town? There's no reason for the doors to spontaneously drop other than, "Ohay. we're almost done. try to kill us!

"

Besides, people would just camp the doors and wait the timer out. Why bother doing anything when we can stand here with our high damage and wait for green to go down? All flood in at once, right? Easy peasy. Especially if they don't have a monk. Not to mention, only Eles, Warriors, Dervishes and Assassins on the luxon team. So much for variety. All the damage dealers would be there.

This is an attack/defend format. It's the nature of the beast that there would be stalemates, and unfortunately there's no way to balance that out. The Kurzicks are defending, so it makes sense that time would be on their side. It sucks to be a luxon and be on the losing end of a stalemate, but, it happens. Luxons get in quicker than Kurzicks anyway. Not like they're missing out, right?

Your suggestions sound like you want an entirely different PvP style. Jade Quarry. You like capping mines and making people haul it for the benefit of their team. Go play that. FA is meant to be different than JQ, and that's why I and a lot of people like it. It's not a mindless cap-fest. That isn't fun.

TL;DR Version:

FA doesn't need to turn into JQ.
--

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pauli

@ Hyperventilate (post No.9):
If the monk was a very very bad player it could be true. Getting a decent monk (sometimes two) on the other side can easily dictate a Kurzick win, in many cases. Most of my comments about monks can be seen in my reply to posts No.4 and 5.

You wouldn't even need a bad monk. A bad Mesmer can deter a monk long enough to allow somebody else to play with the gates. I've seen eles do it, too. Holding a gate doesn't require a massive amount of skill. Most of the time, the monks just roll their faces on the keyboard and viola: A gate is held. Turtle spikes suck, but it's not too difficult. Like I said, a Mesmer or an Ele who are half paying attention can hurt the monk long enough to heal himself, or retreat far enough to not be able to get to the NPC in time.

prinzess of life · Nov 15, 2009, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Did you ever watch the Kurzick introduction cinematics... what is said there should be the mission objectives for the Kurzicks... "give Gunther amber" to build his weapon.. too bad the way it is now it's just a game about defending the base ... no real challenge if you have just 2 decent (healer/protector/weapon spell caster)...
It doesn't take much for Kurzicks to be organized if you have 8 ppl figthing outside green gate, and geting respawned just inside green gate when they die , while Luxon's get respawnd so fare away from it that it makes it impossible for all 8 Luxon's to be together at any moment of the game.

We are also talking about a game , with fictive objectives , not about a guy repairing a car ... a-net set's the objectives and they can define whatever they want as a standart, games are not ruled by the laws of physics.

Pauli · Nov 15, 2009, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyperventilate

Edit:

You wouldn't even need a bad monk. A bad Mesmer can deter a monk long enough to allow somebody else to play with the gates. I've seen eles do it, too. Holding a gate doesn't require a massive amount of skill. Most of the time, the monks just roll their faces on the keyboard and viola: A gate is held. Turtle spikes suck, but it's not too difficult. Like I said, a Mesmer or an Ele who are half paying attention can hurt the monk long enough to heal himself, or retreat far enough to not be able to get to the NPC in time.

A lot of the current mesmers (on the Luxons side) are damage mesmers. Damage and indirect damage (degeneration). You either need two such mesmers, which isnt happening in most cases, or a monk with a decent build which is able to almost totally mitigate incoming damage enough to heal on time. Its amazingly easy.

E damage is so easily mitigated or avoided. Me damage is easily negated as well. The degeneration can be healed as well, but not max degeneration on two targets. However, most damage Mes pick Illusion of Pain, which can't be distributed among several targets without being highly ineffective against such a monk.

What have you got left? Many classes are rendered quite useless when the Mo is hiding behind the wall. Even if the A has a shadowstep (which doesnt exist in each and every good build), his damage is very easily mitigated as well. His CC (Except Daze, which is kind of rare and doesnt last long in most cases) isnt that helpful against a protection Mo who can mitigate a lot of damage even when he's on the ground.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

That one's a rare one there.

There. That was the moment you hit the spot. Its a fact you cant ignore, and therefore that Mo's influence is way off the scale compared to him being just an individual (and doesnt have to be more than decent). Add the easy (and frequent) way in which the Amber is able to fix the gate, and what do you get? One person who has a major influence, all by himself, and not because of his skill. Did I also mention the fact that him being behind the wall pretty much cancels many classes(/professions)?

@ Prinzess of Life
You're right, but I have one thing to say: Some changes, like my suggestions, could be easily implements and could solve the issues at hand.

Let the Kurzick have the advantage through their NPC's presence (except the time it prevents a whole side from getting inside for a very long time, and so easily). Let the Kurzicks have the advantage through the ease in which they defend the last NPC, by having the perches, by fixing the gates, and with their easy map travel through the portals.

Dont let the Kurzicks win because one person can easily hold a turtle for such a long time and so easily. Dont like the Kurzicks win because one person can easily hold the gate (by keeping the NPC alive) behind a wall for such a long time and so easily.

Darkobra · Nov 15, 2009, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by prinzess of life

Why is everybody always talking about taking out a monk? A Ritualist can keep a Juggernaught alive much better than a monk and he doesnt use enchantments.. also a mesmer can not do much about it when a ritualist put's a weaopon spell on the Juggernaught....

Mesmers target spellcasters, not solely monks. A mesmer can't strip weapon spells but we can still pretty much destroy a ritualist.

Don't forget that the game is supposed to be a team game. (I say supposed to be but really, when have you seen the warriors and assassins work as a team?) If a team works together, it really will come down to skill. If the entire team starts fighting in 1v1 scenarios, well it's no wonder Kurzicks always win. What really needs fixing is people. As far as I'm concerned, this is just another case of "If you can't beat it, nerf it."

Pauli · Nov 15, 2009, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

As far as I'm concerned, this is just another case of "If you can't beat it, nerf it."

Far from it. You're not even near. I dont care about losing that much at all. I care about losing when it had little to do with skill. When someone, by himself, has a great impact on the battle's outcome just because of the map's design, I have a problem with it. In my opinion, my simple suggestions will be able to solve that problem.

By the way, this PvP format is clearly made for casuals, as opposed to (for example) GvG tournaments. This PvP challenge should be balance with that fact in mind. I refer to both sides. I expect to lose more than win, when it comes to Fort Aspenwood. Its because the kurzicks are supposed to have an advantage (like any one of those I mentioned in one of my last posts). I want someone to be able to have a serious impact because he was skilled, and only for that reason.

Edit:

After thinking for a while, I've been asking myself: Why shouldnt there be a premade mode (a different outpost) for Fort Aspenwood? It could either be 6vs6 premade, 2 teams of 4 (8vs8) premade, or one team of eight premade (8vs8).

Wouldnt that be interesting (and quite easy to implement too, I believe)? I mean, AB is the only casual PvP battle that allows premade groups. The AB, however, is very different in its nature, and is a lot more like "Cap Wars Online" (more or less, of course). Fort Aspenwood is a lot more about fighting, and I think its great.

drkn · Nov 15, 2009, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

I don't know about the switching sides, thing. Lore wise it'd be impossible to do. Why would Luxons be defending a Kurzick fortress (Besides going, "nurr, we have a kurzick fortress."). That's at least mildly believable. Why would Kurzicks be starting in a Luxon area? That's the part that gets me. They'd have no advantage, and the Luxons wouldn't either in a Kurizick fort. They'd need two maps and, keke, not happening.

this.
if it was lore-wise possible, changing roles would be the only good idea here.

FA is still possible to win as a luxon, been there six times on luxon side and won five matches, got owned by luxons several times lately as well. it's all about the builds, personal experience and teamplay, really.

Pauli · Nov 15, 2009, 09:54 PM // 21:54

And, very often, about using map design flaws to your advantage, like preventing the turtle from moving all by yourself (and very easily too). That's the reason I made my suggestions.

Hyperventilate · Nov 15, 2009, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pauli

A lot of the current mesmers (on the Luxons side) are damage mesmers. Damage and indirect damage (degeneration). You either need two such mesmers, which isnt happening in most cases, or a monk with a decent build which is able to almost totally mitigate incoming damage enough to heal on time. Its amazingly easy.

E damage is so easily mitigated or avoided. Me damage is easily negated as well. The degeneration can be healed as well, but not max degeneration on two targets. However, most damage Mes pick Illusion of Pain, which can't be distributed among several targets without being highly ineffective against such a monk.

What have you got left? Many classes are rendered quite useless when the Mo is hiding behind the wall. Even if the A has a shadowstep (which doesnt exist in each and every good build), his damage is very easily mitigated as well. His CC (Except Daze, which is kind of rare and doesnt last long in most cases) isnt that helpful against a protection Mo who can mitigate a lot of damage even when he's on the ground.

Being a Mesmer primary, I won't go into the tiny nitpickity details of how backfire should always be on a mesmer's bar in FA. Diversion works wonderfully, too. I've powerblocked many-a-gateholding monks. I go in on my mesmer expecting this sort of behavior.

Generally, two monks do not hold a gate together. It's a waste of energy and a waste of time. 90% of the time, one monk holds one gate.

A mesmer who takes degen isn't "damage". A mesmer who is relying that as their sole source of damage are.. well, silly. Like you said. Degen can easily be outhealed and removed. Those mesmers make me lol and they are no threat at all.

Diversion, Backfire, Shame, all these things can easily deter a monk from healing a gate NPC.

The goal of a mesmer/ele/necro/whatever isn't to necessarily kill the holding monk. You just want him to get low enough to where he take the time to heal himself, or retreats far enough from the attack to not be in range to heal the NPC. Like I said, usually (And I mean usually. I have seen otherwise), there is not another healer around to heal that monk. That fraction of a second will give your team time to bring down this gate. One ele shouldn't be much opposition to a turtle, four warriors, a mesmer/ele/necro/whatever and whatever else happens to be on it.

What it comes down to:

If you can see the healer in your aggro bubble when you're against the gate, that means you can hit him, and he can heal the NPC.

The second you see him move out of that range, you've done your job. He can't heal, you can't hit him, and the NPC is vulnerable.

TL;DR Version:

Degen mesmers are not damage mesmers. Illusion of pain won't kill it's intended target due to the heal at the end (Unless there are other factors.)

You do not take degen to deter a gate monk. You do not take energy denial to deter a gate monk (For the case of necro/rits). You take skill denial.

Backfire. Arcane Thievery/Larceny, Diversion, Shame. You take Signet of Humility, disable their elite, and they're generally done.

Builds like these can be useful as general caster hate, so they're multipurpose.

Not everyone's style, but it works, and you can't argue with what works.

Pauli · Nov 16, 2009, 08:23 AM // 08:23

@ Hyperventilate

General

Illusion of Pain doesnt heal its target if you renew it before it ends. Please check the facts first.

Degeneration (and/or damage) Mesmers

You're very very very wrong about the degeneration Me. Some weeks ago I was giving that kind of Me a go, and the results were amazingly surprising. I virtually stopped the Amber running and killed so many I lost count. I did that many times, during many battles, and I have way more than enough experience to tell you that you're wrong.

You should be smart and know where to place yourself. Near the shrines they almost never have a monk, and solo monks even die sometimes, not to mention the fact that most monks dont do Amber runs very often at all.

Degeneration mesmers often include some kind of snare and energy management. They need Inspirations, Illusions and Fast Casting is very helpful here too. That said, how will they have a decent attribute in Dominations to get Diversion and/or backfire?

Backfire's damage can easily be mitigated and that's one of the last hexes I'm afraid of, as a monk. Its not because of any skill on my part. Its just because monks who mitigate damage well can easily ignore Backfire. Its about the build, and builds are usually shared or published, so there's no problem there.

Skill Denial Mesmers

Power Block can also be gamble AND its a rare skill to be taken by a Me at Fort Aspenwood (lets not forget this map is made for casuals, mostly). Furthermore, for it to be a little less of a gamble you need to be skilled and/or seriously slow the Mo's spells (which is also uncommon). Slowing spells means an additional attribute, and could be a problem.

Its true that a monk needs to have above avarage skill to know how to fool such a Me (Power Block), but even then the monk gets way more influence than he should (compared to his skill level and the fact that he's almost always trying to help the NPC alone).

The avarage combination of Shame+Diversion+Backfire is usually taken by anti monk mesmers. Those are very rare on the Luxons side. Very rare indeed. We can argue and blame the players for prefering other classes/roles, but will it really help or change anything? No, it wont.

Monks might be an exception, but if you kill rather than disable (/deny), you're usually getting better results at Fort Aspenwood. There usually isnt a Mo to personally take care of you as a Me on the Luxons side. There's a healing and/or protection monk quite often, and he wont help you many times for various reasons.

Skill denial attracts a lot of attention (hate, mostly) and you'll die very often if you try to help where there's the major battle (inside the fortress or in the final room). Since you dont always (more often not) have the res points near the fortress, you'll res quite far and miss quite a lot of action. This surely is one of the reasons this kind of build isnt popular.

Monk/s who keep/s the gate NPC alive

Two monks helping each other usually happened when one couldnt do his job alone, and he came with a friend (sync, and it happens). This doesnt happen very often, but even then those two people have an impact that's way way too serious for them being two. Most of that impact originates (again) from the map's design mostly. Its not because one (or both) was skilled. You can see that when the monks dont have a wall to hide behind, or when it doesnt depend on the survival of one player/NPC alone.

The goal of the Me (degeneration or damage), E, N (damage or degeneration) etc. is to try to deal enough damage for the monk to be concentrating on himself mostly. What you keep forgetting is that you dont need more than a decent monk to mitigate and heal that damage on two targets at the same time. If you use max degeneration on both targets, that becomes very hard, but then you need two good degenerators at the same team AND the same gate. Its not that common, and you know it as well as I do.

You havent played a Protections monk (or one that isnt built properly for that task) at Fort Aspenwood if you think that him moving a little out of your range for a few moments equals to a vulnerable NPC. If the team was coordinated and could strip+spike fast, you could be right. However, this is Fort Aspenwood we're talking about here. You might as well have totally useless (for that specific goal) people on your side. Very often. And uncoordinated, 99% of the time.

The best way to keep a gate NPC alive is Protections (above all), and many monks know that when they decide to seriously take that role (keeping the gate NPC alive). That said, Protection builds are usually mitigating damage well, but not mitigating degeneration all that well (some more, some less). Generally, when two targets are being heavily degenerated, such a monk will have to give up on one target.

Skill denial was already discussed, and it boiled down to: Skill denial is very rare on the Luxon side, and its a fact. Blame the people for their skill and preferences if you like, its not getting us anywhere. This is a casual PvP battle, and should be treated as such.

upier · Nov 16, 2009, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by prinzess of life

My suggestion to fix fort Aspenwood is something completly new. Change the game mechanics of it !

We all know that Gunther is creating a godly weapon... and to do this he needs a certain amount of time. That's completly wrong - what he should need is Amber.

If the Kurzicks own all 3 amber mines the progression of building that weapon should be triple speed, if they own 2 mines double speed, 1 mine single speed - no mine at all = no progression!

Instead of hiding behind gates keeping one single NPC alive they would actualy have to go out and do something to win...

Running amber should still repair the gates and giving it to gunther should make the weapon be build faster...

I also would introduce some sort of (Victory or Death) mechanics , by opening every gates when the weapon creation hits 90%.

I've bitched about an active goal for the Kurzick in Riverside threads also. While this is taking a step in the right way, it still doesn't do enough.
The problem with just holding the mines is that you can still cap the mine with just one person. Which means you can have up to 3 guys running around outside of the Fort taking back the mines, while the rest of the guys hides behind the gates. And if the Kurzick have the mines, that means that the Luxon spawn even further away from the Fort and are first forced to cap the mines back or have patrols outside of the caste - reducing the size of the incoming army.
And when the incoming army is smaller - that just means that the Kurzick monk behind the gates will have an easier way of keeping the gate up.

Pretty much the best active solution that I could come up with was the need to bring in amber (the solution that would require the least changes to the map) because that forces the Kurzick to open the gates, allowing the Luxon to get in.
And I posted this here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Some things I'd suggest looking into:
1. forcing Kurzicks to abandon their posts (or at least force a split) by giving them an active objective - otherwise the game ends in a draw if the Kurzicks do not achieve the active objective, yet they manage to keep Gunthy alive when the Vengeance completes. This would also enable the Kurzicks to WIN the match without having to wait it out. (Although something new would need to be implemented - because now the only options are taking down the mines, command posts and that's going to be too easy, because you can send a few Kurzick guys to take down those things and that then forces the Luxons to split (to take them back) which means that there is even less chance to them getting into the castle.)
2. some sort of DP - probably not the normal one of having less HP and energy - but something in the lines of coming back as if you were rezzed by a Rez Siggy (full HP, 25% energy)
3. if the Luxons control mines, being able to rez in the castle
4. sending in turtles automatically (and fixing the AI!)
(Keep in mind that just ONE of those suggestions won't matter in the slightest with heavy(or full)-support Kurzick teams.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

On the subject of giving a Kurzicks an active objective: it hit me that running amber is a VERY decent option. But to make it viable - the Kurzicks NEED to be forced to run it! That could be achieved if Vengeance would only rise if amber was handed to the NPCs (of course then the amount by which the Vengeance rises when handing amber would need to be tweaked!). That means that Kurzicks can NOT win unless they run amber. And to run amber they'd need to open doors - which means that Luxons can get in (doors could then also be tweaked by making them stay open for a certain time each time they are opened - so that you don't get people opening and closing them to fast for the Luxons to be able to react).
And if the Kurzicks need to run amber - this imposes the luck-factor on the Kurzick side. The same thing that currently punishes the Luxon side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem is that running amber is an optional objective. What could be done though is make it into a mandatory for winning. This could be achieved by adding a second counter - a simple counter that counts the number of ambers brought in. If the Kurzicks fail to bring in a specific number of amber at the end of the match - the match ends in a draw.
This forces a number of tactics:
1. the Kurzicks focus on achieving a draw. Full monk teams - Luxons can not get in to kill Gunther. Game ends in a draw because the Luxons failed to achieve the goal of killing Gunthy and Kurzicks failed to bring in the required number of amber.
2. Luxons try to force a draw by camping the amber sites, killing everyone that comes close on sight, thus preventing Kurzicks from obtaining the needed amber. This of course means that no-one goes after Gunther - which means that Luxons can not win. Draw again.
3. Luxons push into the castle - letting Kurzicks go after amber. If the guys want to bring in amber - the doors need to go down, which opens up the chance for the Luxons to go in. Kurzicks obtain amber BUT they can not hide behind a wall. And if the Kurzicks control the mines - that means the Luxons spawn at the other side of the map - massively increasing the time it takes them to reach the castle again.
4. Various splits. Some Kurzicks defend Gunthy, while other run amber VS. some Luxons advance into the castle while other guys camp the amber sites.

Of course what then needs to be looked at are the NPCs. Trash the Turtle, trash the Jaggy, trash the ability to fix the gates, ... these are all variables that can be looked at.

From these threads:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10376269
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10337304

On the subject of shutdown-mesmers as the solution to the issue:
You won't be able to keep the monks shutdown for longer times. Which basically means that what you are asking for is a random team pulling off a spike by using team chat to time it.
Don't get me wrong - harassing the monks will do wonders. But the problem is unless the Luxon team is much better than the Kurzick, there is still a chance that they won't win. You'll have cases where the Luxon team WILL be better than the Kurzick, yet the Kurzick will still win. Just because the map plays such a big role.

Pauli · Nov 16, 2009, 11:03 AM // 11:03

@ upier

I'll start with something I already said before:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pauli

- The winning condition will make it quite impossible for the Luxons because their forces will have to spread thin, instead of concentrating. I dont even want to mention the degree to which the casual players there are really organised. Lets not even start discussing appropriate builds and/or decision making.

- Spreading the forces that much will probably make the big battles less frequent (or even rare). Big battles, in which many of the players and/or NPC are involved, is one of the things that makes Fort Aspenwood special compared to the AB and the Jade Quarry.

The AB is also made of premades, I'm aware of it, but the battle itself is about capturing and holding points that are quite far from each other. The Jade Quarry is more or less the same. Fort Aspenwood is, however, about battles in which many people (and/or NPC) fight at the same area (quite often).

One of the reasons I'm playing at Fort Aspenwood is that I'm quite tired of "Cap Wars Online" (AB, JQ). I like the aspect of actually fighting people instead of chasing cappers. I like the idea of people having to fight to get something instead of sneaking around all day long (which many do at the JQ or the AB).

Other than the above, you didnt mention one important fact: The Kurzicks are still able to hold the turtle in one place very easily and for a long time. They can do so because of the Turtle's AI (which is a part of the map's design) and not because of anything that's related to skill. Lets not even mention the fact that one person can do that alone (and very easily, like I said).

Let not forget, by the way, the fact that the Kurzicks have quite the easy time protecting the Fortress because of various reasons. I find most of them acceptable (those which arent acceptable, in my opinion, were discussed in this thread). For that reason I believe your suggestion, of forcing them out to the mines NEAR the Fortress, are a good idea. This will also incite many more encounters.

- The spawned Turtle should really start moving by itself. That's a very good suggestion, and I highly doubt its hard to implement.

- Full monk teams can be prevented if there's a cap to each class (/profession) in every team. For example, no more than two monks per team.

- I still believe there should be a way for the Luxons to gain points and the fight to be capped at 15 minutes. Another option is to cap the battle at 15 minutes, and if the Kurzicks fail to bring the Amber by then, its a draw. I see no problem with that happening. I believe it'll create a battle that's centered around the mines. I see no problem with it, although I'd prefer it to be an all out 8vs8 fight between the two sides (at least some of the battle). That's what I prefer.

Last words (For this post)

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

On the subject of shutdown-mesmers as the solution to the issue:
You won't be able to keep the monks shutdown for longer times. Which basically means that what you are asking for is a random team pulling off a spike by using team chat to time it.
Don't get me wrong - harassing the monks will do wonders. But the problem is unless the Luxon team is much better than the Kurzick, there is still a chance that they won't win. You'll have cases where the Luxon team WILL be better than the Kurzick, yet the Kurzick will still win. Just because the map plays such a big role.

You really hit the spot there.

upier · Nov 16, 2009, 11:18 AM // 11:18

I feel that the introduction of the draw mechanic based on an active Kurzick goal, as I have noted in my previous post, would fix a lot of issues.
For instance, 8 monk team wouldn't be able to take mines, which means they can't bring in amber, which means that the best they can hope for is a draw. Which means to win, the Kurzick need to rely on luck to get a mix of defence and offence, the same way that the Luxon currently need to rely on that same luck.

The problem here is that the Kurzick teams that can't actively win, win because the timer reaches 0.

Pauli · Nov 16, 2009, 11:28 AM // 11:28

You're right about the draw, and therefore I have a better suggestion (in my opinion):

Another suggestion crossed my mind, although this one isnt that easy to implement:

To force the Kurzicks out of the wall, to some extent, and then create a battle inside the fortress. How will I do that? The battle will have the winning condition of killing Gunther and the Kurzicks will have have to buy Gunther enough time, but in a different way than its now. According to this suggestion, the battle should still last 15 minutes maximum.

- Gunther will start creating the weapon only after a said amount of Amber is supplied. He'll need a shorter time than now, to compensate for the lost time (to get the Amber), though. Any surplus Amber could be gathered to Fix the gates (although some of it could be gathered to fix the gate anyway). The amount of Amber required for Gunthar's weapon. should be balanced, and I know its not an easy task.

- If the Kurzicks dont collect enough Amber by the time that's been allocated for that, its going to be a draw. For example, the Kurzicks will have 7 minutes to gather enough Amber for Gunther, because he needs 8 minutes to get the weapon done (which means the battle lasts 15 minutes maximum).

- Luxons win only if the kill Gunthar. Make it extremely hard for Luxons to gank Gunther

This battle design forces the players to fight, and the Kurzicks will have to fight outside their walls at least some of the time.

For this idea to work, the following issues must be addressed:

- The Siege Turtle's AI will have to be changed according to my suggestion

- The "monk/s holding the gate for too long" issue will also have to be fixed, using my suggestion or another.

What could be the reason to invest enough resources to change Fort Aspenwood? In my opinion, there are many casuals in the game who like battles that are different than the "Cap Wars Online" which are the Jade Quarry and the Alliance Battles. Furthermore, its possible to create another outpost where its possible to fight at Fort Aspenwood by gathering premade teams (2 teams of 4, one team of 6, or one team of 8).

Edit:

Besides, if its possible, you could always create another outpost in which my suggestions are implemented. That way you dont upset anyone because they still have the old format just the way it is. In my opinion its an easy way to check the new format's popularity.

Edit 2:

Some time after that second outpost is implemented, it would be quite clear which option is more popular

the_jos · Nov 16, 2009, 12:53 PM // 12:53

First fix is better players.
Is people stop bringing random builds, specially on Luxon, things will be fine.
The turtle blocking is annoying, could use fix. Or people should get rid of the person blocking. Not that hard with decent build, which brings me back to better players

Pauli · Nov 16, 2009, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

First fix is better players.
Is people stop bringing random builds, specially on Luxon, things will be fine.
The turtle blocking is annoying, could use fix. Or people should get rid of the person blocking. Not that hard with decent build, which brings me back to better players

Instead of expecting the players to change, you could create a format that is much more suitable for better players, like the premade outpost (in addition to the random team outpost) I suggested.

Other than that I agree with you.

upier · Nov 16, 2009, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

First fix is better players.
Is people stop bringing random builds, specially on Luxon, things will be fine.
The turtle blocking is annoying, could use fix. Or people should get rid of the person blocking. Not that hard with decent build, which brings me back to better players

Reminds me of the times when I was playing against Luxon that were CLEARLY better than us, but we still won.

HawkofStorms · Nov 16, 2009, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

For instance, 8 monk team wouldn't be able to take mines, which means they can't bring in amber, which means that the best they can hope for is a draw. Which means to win, the Kurzick need to rely on luck to get a mix of defence and offence, the same way that the Luxon currently need to rely on that same luck.

The problem here is that the Kurzick teams that can't actively win, win because the timer reaches 0.

ROJ much? They can definitely take shrines. Heck, I've seen W/Mos in FA with it.

Otherwise, I generally agree with you.

Although it is generally difficult to get accurate numbers on how fair a map is. Anybody posting on this thread is by far a better then average player. Which means whatever side you are going to play in will usually end up winning more just because you are so beneficial to your team.

upier · Nov 16, 2009, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

ROJ much? They can definitely take shrines. Heck, I've seen W/Mos in FA with it.

We are dealing with a random format.
If you end up being the only monk on the team - do you really want to run RoJ?
Plus, keep in mind that because the Kurzick win when the timer reaches 0, there is no punishment for having additional defensive guys on your team.

The only reason why you do not see full-on defensive teams is because the Kurzick are really that bad.

Premium Unleaded · Nov 16, 2009, 05:50 PM // 17:50

I've always found it rather ironic that 99% of the time, a kurzick Mo/ will be packing RoJ and more often than not their luxon counterparts are running typical backliner bars.

Pauli · Nov 16, 2009, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

ROJ much? They can definitely take shrines. Heck, I've seen W/Mos in FA with it.

Otherwise, I generally agree with you.

Although it is generally difficult to get accurate numbers on how fair a map is. Anybody posting on this thread is by far a better then average player. Which means whatever side you are going to play in will usually end up winning more just because you are so beneficial to your team.

There are way better ways of taking shrines. AoE is your thing? A Fire Elementalist will defenitely be more valuable to your side. I have yet to see even one RoJ monk who was seriously helping his team's defense.

y the way, I always like it when they were on the Kurzick side because I knew its, more or less, like one less person. I would either hunt them down and kill them VERY easily, or I would heal the NPCs they try to kill. It was laughable to see their attempt to harm me.

I disagree about the part in your post that refers to fairness. First of all, A-Net have clear statistics, which I know nothing of. Other than that, there are clear issues which can allow someone to have a very serious impact on the battle, and not because of his skill. It was discussed quite a lot at this thread by now (And I also made simple suggestions to fix it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

We are dealing with a random format.
If you end up being the only monk on the team - do you really want to run RoJ?
Plus, keep in mind that because the Kurzick win when the timer reaches 0, there is no punishment for having additional defensive guys on your team.

The only reason why you do not see full-on defensive teams is because the Kurzick are really that bad.

Amazingly right. Enough said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

I've always found it rather ironic that 99% of the time, a kurzick Mo/ will be packing RoJ and more often than not their luxon counterparts are running typical backliner bars.

Sad, but true.